>> Trailblazing comedian Margaret Cho has paved the way from most every woman working in stand up today.

She has been fighting stereotypes for 30 years and is a proud advocate for women.

She has never shied away from speaking her mind and still has a lot to say.

Tonight, the comedy legend joins me for a conversation about her career, activism, the rise of anti-agent hate.

Wish comics maker laugh, what it is like for a comedian to work with Disney.

"MetroFocus" starts right now.

♪ >> This is "MetroFocus," with Rafael Pi Roman, Jack Ford and Jenna Flanagan.

"MetroFocus" is made possible by the Sue and Edgar Wachenheim III Foundation, the Peter Peterson Fund, Bernard and Denise Schwartz, and by Jody and John Arnhold, and the Ambrose Monell Foundation.

♪ Jenna: I am Jenna Flanagan.

She has been described as a pioneer, legend and an icon.

Margaret Cho has inspired a generation of women, Asian American and queer comedians.

She has pushed boundaries in a career that has spanned stand up, television and film.

Throughout her career, Cho has been outspoken about a range of issues from white supremacy, addiction, trans rights and more.

Her standup has been sharp, edgy and hilarious, making audiences laugh with jokes like this.

Margaret: You know people who are really -- Asian?

My Korean name -- that is my name.

My Korean name is the name of Kim Jong-Il's production company.

I have a friend who is even more Asian.

Her friend is -- [LAUGHTER] That is pretty.

Wow.

How do you spell that?

Jenna: Cho is hitting the road again with the new comedy tour and is keeping herself busy with starring roles on TV and film.

Joining me now to talk about her career and activism is the legend, Margaret Cho.

Welcome to "MetroFocus."

Margaret: Thank you so much.

Jenna: I am one of the women you have definitely inspired although I am not a comedian, despite what people say about journalism.

What I want to ask you is what drew you to comedy?

Margaret: Thank you.

I love the artform.

I think it is something that is really special.

And really unique everyone who does comedy is called to it by some bizarre force of nature.

We are not really sure why we like this but we also have to.

In a sense, in a lot of ways, people would say it is kind of a calling.

It is not unlike people feel like they are drawn to clergy.

People are drawn to comedy in the same way.

It is less of an ambition and something that is unique in the entertainment industry because we are the hardest working part.

We are never allowed to rest on this idea of past success.

We have to keep on forging forward with new material and new ideas.

It is the workhorse part of entertainment.

It is really gratifying.

Jenna: One of the things I want to clarify for the audience, especially about people who perform on stage for a living is the person or personality -- I am speaking to right now is not the same person you would see on stage.

How do you craft and determine how you will present yourself on stage versus who you are in real life?

Margaret: Naturally, I am pretty introverted.

To go out and perform as a standup comedian is odd.

It is not in line with who I am as a person.

I am pretty shy and really much more of an observer.

I noticed most comedians are that way.

Most comedians are serious people, and sensitive.

We are easily offended and easily hurt, which is why we have that reaction mechanism, a sense of humor, to deflect it.

It deflects the pain and we have worked on that so hard that we made a career out of it.

Humor is a way of coping.

I think that is part of it.

I am naturally not inclined to be a performer, by nature, but comedy seems to have that strange effect, where it seems to work in my favor.

Jenna: That actually speaks into what seems to be a larger issue happening in the comedy world right now and that is what people find offensive and what they don't and if that is encroaching on a comedian's ability to do their job at the highest level.

I am just wondering, especially as an activist who has been outspoken on behalf of some of the communities who have found themselves as punching bags recently, how do you see that affecting comedy?

Margaret: It is really important to just work harder, to do better in terms of our skill, in terms of the way we can project nuance onto an issue.

There has to be a lot of intentionality behind what you are saying nowadays, which I think is ultimately great for the artform.

It allows us to have more of an expansive view of who our audience really is.

That is a really important idea to think about.

Whereas language is so important that we did not realize its power until now.

So many things are coded ways perpetuating sexism, racism, that we did not even understand it was part of our language.

I think what society is now trying to do is correct or have a reckoning of some of our past and how casual we had bias baked into our culture.

I am grateful for it.

It makes things more challenging but we should be challenged.

Artists should be challenged.

Not every comedian wants to admit that were look at that, but I do.

Jenna: OK. All right.

One of the questions building on that is a few years ago, you had a cameo on the show "Good Trouble," and you were playing yourself.

What advice would you give to young Asian Americans going into Hollywood, but also standup?

With these reckonings we are having, we are seeing a backlash -- we have talked several times on "MetroFocus" about how the Asian American community has experienced an incredible uptick in violence.

Margaret: We have had so many terrible things happen within the Asian American community, directed at the Asian American community, specifically around coronavirus and specifically from a joke told by Donald Trump, calling the coronavirus the "Kung Flu."

They took that and created another pandemic of racism toward Asian Americans.

This is a way that language is so powerful.

It is really important we have more Asian American voices in comedy, in particular.

That is something that is really exciting to see so many great Asian American comedians.

My favorites, Ken Jong, they are all burst from me.

-- they are all birthed from me, they all came from my comedy womb, so I want them to birth the next generation.

I want people to get out there and express themselves.

It is really important we have a voice, particularly in comedy because comedy is so powerful, humor is so powerful.

The message we send is essential.

This is a great time to embrace that.

Jenna: Speaking of the powerful nature of comedy, and also you referencing the ineffective joke that the previous president had made in regard to the coronavirus, why is it that you think so many Americans prefer to get their truth from a comedian and sometimes they do from more traditional sources of journalism?

Margaret: I think there is a classic idea that the comedian is the one who will tell the truth.

It sort of light comes from the archetype of the court jester, the only one allowed to make fun of the king.

We have a way of dismantling power structures when you are humorous.

There is something about it where you can make the powers that be laugh, you can really get away with anything.

That is something I think every comedian understands to be very much a part of who we are.

We have a little bit of leeway, we can get through a message.

That is why I think everyone knows the best way to get our news is through that filter of comedy, whether that is John Oliver, whether that is some of the late-night talk shows like Trevor Noah or Jon Stewart.

That is a wonderful way to hear what is going on.

Jenna: How much do you think the way we view the comedians who we hold up and give the -- I don't want to sear the highest honor -- but the most attention -- -- I don't want to say the highest honor -- how does that shape our current zeitgeist?

Margaret: Comedians are highly valued as interpreters of culture.

The problem is, we cannot trust them all the time because they are still human beings.

They still may hold values that may not be the best for every constituent.

We are not politicians, which is probably good.

Just because somebody has ability to do this does not mean they will always be right, myself included.

That is the other thing.

It is also just entertainment.

Sometimes people can sort of be the completist, where they have to agree with everything that particular artist says.

I cannot say that about any artist out there who I agree wholeheartedly with everything they have said and done.

Jenna: Not to belabor the point too much but, given the fact that you did mention the joke that Former President Trump had made and the fact the comedians are not politicians, but it seems like more and more that we are seeing community leaders in an attempt to communicate better with their constituents try their hand at comedy.

But as you have described, it is an art form that people work hard at.

Is this something that could work or do you usually see train wrecks and disasters?

Margaret: I love it when comedians -- I do shows with political figures sometimes and they tried their hand sometimes they are really good.

Adam Schiff is actually great.

I did a standup comedy show with him and he killed.

He was really awesome.

Sometimes it really, really works.

There is a kind of charm that politicians naturally have because they have to be.

It is a popularity contest.

Of course, they are there to create a better society, but ultimately, we vote for politicians and how they make us feel.

Charm is an important weapon in the arsenal of any political figure and charm is really what -- it is the standing tent poles of standup comedy, we will need the structure and part of what holds us up is charm.

Jenna: OK.

I want to go back to your story, your personal story.

You were talking about some of the comedians, especially Asian American comedians, who were birthed from your comedic womb.

Who were your inspirations?

Who did you look up to?

I cannot really think of any prominent Asian American comedians before you.

The common phrase is always, if you can see her, you can be her.

If you could not see her, who did you look up to?

Margaret: I was excited by Jack and Pat, who were part of this extended rat pack entertainers that were kind of crossed over a little bit into that boys club of Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin and all of those seekers.

One old -- all of those figures.

There were no Asian American women to look to.

I look to people like Paula Poundstone, for sure.

Certainly Joan Rivers was incredibly influential.

Later in life, a good friend and a mentor.

There were people like that, but ultimately, I did not have a sense of looking to someone I could be like.

I think about who I was back then, I must have been very brave to not consider race at all when I was pursuing my career.

I just love doing standup comedy.

I guess I could not see what it would be or model myself after anyone but it turned out pretty well.

Jenna: We have so many conversations now about the notion of being the first, being the person who kicks open the door.

In hindsight, let her people who have been to that experience say, actually, I did not realize -- were there any moments for you, even though you said there were things were not considering, like race, but looking back with the benefit of hindsight, where there any moments that stood out like I cannot believe I was able to make that happen, or I cannot believe that X, Y, and Z transpired?

Margaret: My first comedy shows, the club put up a flyer for me because I did not have headshots.

The use the caricature from the railroad workers -- the Chinese railroad workers from California in the 1800s with buck teeth and long braids, eating rice with chopsticks.

These racist caricatures that were 100 years old.

I could not believe it.

And they thought they were doing me a favor.

And I could not believe it.

100 years old.

I am like a child.

I am like 14 or 15.

I do not think you should put those -- and my voice is cracking -- I don't think you should put those in the window.

I was so scared.

That kind of blind ignorance, not even acknowledging the thought that this might be offensive, not a thought.

To go from that sort of dehumanizing place to now, where you are seeing Asian Americans in comedy all at once, when the most awarded film in history, these amazing comedians, they are out there representing comedy.

They are out there representing comedy in different forms.

All of these wonderful performers.

We have gone so far from the racist caricatures being used as promotional material.

I cannot believe it but it is real.

Jenna: White supremacy is one of the things you talk about in your comedy show.

Even now in 2023, that seems like a brave thing to do.

That is something people are still uncomfortable with.

Why is it important for you to go to the uncomfortable place?

Margaret: It is so important to really look at all of this without Ridge -- outrage because we have this rise of Nazi propaganda against drag queens.

The rise of Nazi-ism is the most shocking thing.

They are openly saying, we are Nazis.

The fact they can go to events where children are being read stories by drag queens and protest, traumatizing children by bringing Nazis, the footage I am seeing where there are protesters that are hooded, claiming it is better to be a Nazi than to be gay, it is so shocking.

I think it is an extinction versed of white supremacy.

I am hoping that is what it is.

These outbursts of violence toward gay people, outbursts of racism.

I hope this is some sort of extinction -- all of the mass shootings.

It is so alarming.

We have to be uncomfortable because the world is a mess.

Jenna: That is one of the things I have wondered about comics.

What you described, I am sure our "MetroFocus" viewers are familiar with that is happening more and more in addition to other things that might feel frightening or terrifying, how do you go from that place of deep anxiety or fear about a situation and find laugh out loud, belly hurts laughter?

How do you find those places from fear?

Margaret: It is a way we cope with suffering and this feeling of hopelessness.

It is a way to have power over a situation, which I think is really the only way to have hope.

To find a way to laugh about it.

It is really this shocking thing.

The only way we can survive is to breathe through it.

Laughter is kind of an extreme breathing.

We need that extreme awareness of breath, force of life moving through something.

It is coping.

Jenna: I hear what you are saying.

I also know you have been very, very busy with numerous other projects where you have been making cameos, small parts, etc.

How important is it, particularly Asian Americans as a group, are able to find space in our cultural zeitgeist for the case of normalizing existence?

Margaret: Figuring out where and how and how much we need to have a space there, to create a space for ourselves at the table.

It is just really, really important.

For so long, we have denied ourselves that, maybe because we never saw ourselves there.

This is an important time.

It is about participating in what it means to be at the table.

Jenna: Speaking of being at the table, one of the pinnacles of being at the table in Hollywood might be being in a dizzy movie.

I understand -- a Disney movie.

Can you reflect on what it took to get to that place?

Disney was like, we would like to have you, Margaret Cho, and one of our films?

Margaret: I love working with them and I think it is really great.

I love this movie.

It is so beautiful.

Just a very special story.

It is also an Asian American story.

It is also a queer story.

To get to be part of the coming-of-age experience, to live that through this character's eyes, going through a journey of one to go to Harvard and she just needs to put her life in balance.

My character is there to help her.

I love that.

I think it is a beautiful film and I'm thrilled to be in it.

Jenna: Leaving that aside, you are going back on the road again.

For people who are familiar with your work, people who are not them when you're with your work, can you share a little bit about what people might expect?

Is this classic Margaret Cho or is there something new sprinkled in that we would not expect?

Margaret: It is all new, taking on this idea of "how can we protect ourselves in the queer community?

How can we protect ourselves as women of color?

How can we protect ourselves as a society that has mass shootings, racism, homophobia, with anti-trans bills?

How do we cope with that?"

That is what it is all about.

The anger is real.

The show is called "Live and Livid."

Jenna: Final question.

You talked about the comedians who came after you.

If there were another 15-year-old like you were, who feels like with everything they see happening in their community , in their country, etc., that comedy would be the best place for them to express their concerns or outrage, what would be your advice?

Margaret: They have to go do it and do not take "no" for an answer.

Keep going, keep working.

We need you.

Jenna: On that note, we will leave it there.

Margaret Cho, it has been such an honor and pleasure to share this space with you for this conversation.

Thank you so much for the work you do and thank you for joining us on "MetroFocus."

Margaret: Thank you.

Jenna: Absolutely.

♪ >> Thank you for tuning into "MetroFocus."

you can take our award-winning program with you anywhere you go with the "MetroFocus" podcast.

You will never miss an episode.

Simply ask your smart speaker to play "MetroFocus: The Podcast."

And on the NPR1 app.

♪ >> "MetroFocus" is made possible by the Sue and Edgar Wachenheim III Foundation, the Peter Peterson Fund, Bernard and Denise Schwartz, and by Jody and John Arnhold, and the Ambrose Monell Foundation.

♪